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Miss. immigration bill makes sense
Abstract:
At least here in Mississippi, if not the whole nation, some progress is being made against illegal immigration. A bill that just passed the state's Senate floor could deny illegal immigrants workers' compensation and death benefits....
- Displaying 1 - 44 of 44
Yes
posted 2/29/08 @ 3:27 PM CST
Originally posted byCassie Howard
Lazarus,
Who will work in our poultry factories, sweet potato farms, or construction sites if illegal immigrants are not here? And if the answer is other Mississippians, how much will we have to pay for chicken, sweet potatoes, and houses if the employers are forced to up their wages. And how will a farmer in Vardaman or a construction company owner in Biloxi find means to check the legal status of their employees? How will he or she pay for it? Will the government pay for the laptop he'll have to buy to search a database that the government will have to build and disperse. Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
My grandpa owns a small logging company in Northeast Mississippi. He employs a likely undocumented worker. He does not own a laptop or have the internet. He has two forms of i.d. from the man, which is what the government requires. What else should he do? The man is the best worker he has. It's hard for him to hire someone else because he can't pay much since his local business is going under due to competition from national contractors.
There are also many studies that show undocumented people have less of a negative impact on an economy than actual citizens. I encourage you to consider those. Undocumented workers pay in taxes, pay in social security, but they don't receive anything back. It is pretty hard to qualify for governmental aid if you ARE a citizen. It is impossible if you don't have proper documentation. I'd encourage you to ask undocumented people in Mississippi (or anybody in Mississippi) how much they have benefited from "free health care." Undocumented workers also put money into our economy by shopping at our businesses, buying houses in our state, renting apartments in our towns.
Speaking of apartments, I don't understand your apartment analogy. Can you explain that further?
I respect your opinion, and I wouldn't accuse your logic of racism, but I would ask you to think real hard about what bothers you the most about illegal immigration? Has it really hurt your pocketbook? I doubt it. What are you afraid of?
Who did all this work 5 years ago before there were 20 million illegals in our country? Who does this work in area's that don't have a lot of illegals? Greedy employers pay less money and make bigger profits with illegals and the tazpayer ends up paying for the illegals benefits!
http://www.numbersusa.com
carlos h mackey
posted 2/29/08 @ 3:46 PM CST
Originally posted byCassie Howard
Lazarus,
Who will work in our poultry factories, sweet potato farms, or construction sites if illegal immigrants are not here? And if the answer is other Mississippians, how much will we have to pay for chicken, sweet potatoes, and houses if the employers are forced to up their wages. And how will a farmer in Vardaman or a construction company owner in Biloxi find means to check the legal status of their employees? How will he or she pay for it? Will the government pay for the laptop he'll have to buy to search a database that the government will have to build and disperse. Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
My grandpa owns a small logging company in Northeast Mississippi. He employs a likely undocumented worker. He does not own a laptop or have the internet. He has two forms of i.d. from the man, which is what the government requires. What else should he do? The man is the best worker he has. It's hard for him to hire someone else because he can't pay much since his local business is going under due to competition from national contractors.
There are also many studies that show undocumented people have less of a negative impact on an economy than actual citizens. I encourage you to consider those. Undocumented workers pay in taxes, pay in social security, but they don't receive anything back. It is pretty hard to qualify for governmental aid if you ARE a citizen. It is impossible if you don't have proper documentation. I'd encourage you to ask undocumented people in Mississippi (or anybody in Mississippi) how much they have benefited from "free health care." Undocumented workers also put money into our economy by shopping at our businesses, buying houses in our state, renting apartments in our towns.
Speaking of apartments, I don't understand your apartment analogy. Can you explain that further?
I respect your opinion, and I wouldn't accuse your logic of racism, but I would ask you to think real hard about what bothers you the most about illegal immigration? Has it really hurt your pocketbook? I doubt it. What are you afraid of?
I once made $25.00 per hour in construction and my rent was 430.00 per mo. for a 1bdrm apt.I quit when I went out on a job and it paid $4.15 an hour working alongside a bunch of illegals. I now pay $690.00 per mo. for a tiny studio apt. due to supply and demand for affordable housing. That is how illegal immigration affects me. I is hell out hr in Los Angeles because this problem. Also supermarket buyers set the price of produce by a bidding process not the grower.
Chuck Bronco
posted 6/20/08 @ 1:33 PM CST
Originally posted byCassie Howard
Lazarus,
Who will work in our poultry factories, sweet potato farms, or construction sites if illegal immigrants are not here? And if the answer is other Mississippians, how much will we have to pay for chicken, sweet potatoes, and houses if the employers are forced to up their wages. And how will a farmer in Vardaman or a construction company owner in Biloxi find means to check the legal status of their employees? How will he or she pay for it? Will the government pay for the laptop he'll have to buy to search a database that the government will have to build and disperse. Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
My grandpa owns a small logging company in Northeast Mississippi. He employs a likely undocumented worker. He does not own a laptop or have the internet. He has two forms of i.d. from the man, which is what the government requires. What else should he do? The man is the best worker he has. It's hard for him to hire someone else because he can't pay much since his local business is going under due to competition from national contractors.
There are also many studies that show undocumented people have less of a negative impact on an economy than actual citizens. I encourage you to consider those. Undocumented workers pay in taxes, pay in social security, but they don't receive anything back. It is pretty hard to qualify for governmental aid if you ARE a citizen. It is impossible if you don't have proper documentation. I'd encourage you to ask undocumented people in Mississippi (or anybody in Mississippi) how much they have benefited from "free health care." Undocumented workers also put money into our economy by shopping at our businesses, buying houses in our state, renting apartments in our towns.
Speaking of apartments, I don't understand your apartment analogy. Can you explain that further?
I respect your opinion, and I wouldn't accuse your logic of racism, but I would ask you to think real hard about what bothers you the most about illegal immigration? Has it really hurt your pocketbook? I doubt it. What are you afraid of?
Gee, thanks for making slavery possible in the 21st century.
Cherubim
posted 2/29/08 @ 10:31 AM CST
In Mexico there is a very rich ruling class of elites. Mexican citizens should stop marching in the streets of the U.S., and go to their own government and demand the officials in their government stop being corrupt and stop taking money from the drug cartels. I fear that the ruling elites on both sides of the border are in a plot together:
The ruling plutocracy on the Mexican side want to
dump their poor into the U.S. so the U.S. Middle Class tax payers will take care of their education and health needs, while the ruling plutocracy on the U.S. side want to get slave labor and cheap ocean front property.
By the way here is the forbes.com list of Mexican billionaires. Why won't the Mexican citizens in the U.S go home and march in front of their streets:
Mexican billionaires:
Names Personal worth in billions
Carlos Slim Helu Mexico 49 U.S.billion dollars
(Carlos Helu has now surpassed Bill Gates, and is now offically the richest man in the world)
Alberto Bailleres Mexico, 5.0 billion dollars
Ricardo Salinas Pliego, 4.6 billion dollars
Jeronimo Arango, 4.3 billion dollars
Emilio Azcarraga Jean, 2.1 billion dollars
Roberto Hernandez Ramirez 2.0 billion dollars
Maria Asuncion Aramburuzabala family, 2.0 billion
Isaac Saba Raffoul & family, 1.8 billion dollars
Lorenzo Zambrano & family, 1.7 billion dollars
Alfredo Harp Helu, 1.6 billion dollars
The ruling plutocracy on the Mexican side want to
dump their poor into the U.S. so the U.S. Middle Class tax payers will take care of their education and health needs, while the ruling plutocracy on the U.S. side want to get slave labor and cheap ocean front property.
By the way here is the forbes.com list of Mexican billionaires. Why won't the Mexican citizens in the U.S go home and march in front of their streets:
Mexican billionaires:
Names Personal worth in billions
Carlos Slim Helu Mexico 49 U.S.billion dollars
(Carlos Helu has now surpassed Bill Gates, and is now offically the richest man in the world)
Alberto Bailleres Mexico, 5.0 billion dollars
Ricardo Salinas Pliego, 4.6 billion dollars
Jeronimo Arango, 4.3 billion dollars
Emilio Azcarraga Jean, 2.1 billion dollars
Roberto Hernandez Ramirez 2.0 billion dollars
Maria Asuncion Aramburuzabala family, 2.0 billion
Isaac Saba Raffoul & family, 1.8 billion dollars
Lorenzo Zambrano & family, 1.7 billion dollars
Alfredo Harp Helu, 1.6 billion dollars
jamse
posted 2/29/08 @ 12:03 PM CST
Cassie, in regards to your questions, who do you think did those jobs before the illegals came here??? it was Americans.
The prices will not change much but it will mean that the employer is following the laws of the United States where its already against the law to hire and employ illegals.
As for employers checking ones legal status. the federal government has ways to check it without a lap top.
And before you think of throwing racism into the mix.. this is NOT about Racism, this is about the rule of law and in covers everyone. No matter what color skin or what country they are from. Remember that and when someone claims it to be racism. let them know they are wrong, its about the rule of law. you will find that people who use the 'race" card do so because they know they are wrong and they have no other way to fight and argue
Oklahoma, Arizona, and Georgia all have laws regarding illegal immigration and the benefits they cant get unless they prove they are legally here. That is why these three states have seen a steady stream of people leaving their states. 40 other states have some legislation against illegals and states like Kansas, Arkansas, Missouri and Indiana right now have new bills in their legislature regarding illegals.
The prices will not change much but it will mean that the employer is following the laws of the United States where its already against the law to hire and employ illegals.
As for employers checking ones legal status. the federal government has ways to check it without a lap top.
And before you think of throwing racism into the mix.. this is NOT about Racism, this is about the rule of law and in covers everyone. No matter what color skin or what country they are from. Remember that and when someone claims it to be racism. let them know they are wrong, its about the rule of law. you will find that people who use the 'race" card do so because they know they are wrong and they have no other way to fight and argue
Oklahoma, Arizona, and Georgia all have laws regarding illegal immigration and the benefits they cant get unless they prove they are legally here. That is why these three states have seen a steady stream of people leaving their states. 40 other states have some legislation against illegals and states like Kansas, Arkansas, Missouri and Indiana right now have new bills in their legislature regarding illegals.
Cassie
posted 2/29/08 @ 1:48 PM CST
Originally posted byjamse
Cassie, in regards to your questions, who do you think did those jobs before the illegals came here??? it was Americans.
The prices will not change much but it will mean that the employer is following the laws of the United States where its already against the law to hire and employ illegals.
As for employers checking ones legal status. the federal government has ways to check it without a lap top.
And before you think of throwing racism into the mix.. this is NOT about Racism, this is about the rule of law and in covers everyone. No matter what color skin or what country they are from. Remember that and when someone claims it to be racism. let them know they are wrong, its about the rule of law. you will find that people who use the 'race" card do so because they know they are wrong and they have no other way to fight and argue
Oklahoma, Arizona, and Georgia all have laws regarding illegal immigration and the benefits they cant get unless they prove they are legally here. That is why these three states have seen a steady stream of people leaving their states. 40 other states have some legislation against illegals and states like Kansas, Arkansas, Missouri and Indiana right now have new bills in their legislature regarding illegals.
Thanks for your response.
Sometimes, it's true that Americans did the work before undocumented people came. The question is, why did they stop? In most cases, I don't believe it's because undocumented workers came and took their jobs. (One possible exception might be construction work.) One of the other commenters made a very good point about the necessity of increasing wages and providing farmers with a means of paying those wages. If that happened, then certainly undocumented workers would be competing with fellow Americans.
Instead, most undocumented workers come here precisely because there are jobs that need filling. They know about the jobs before they get here.
I would like to know more about the recent history of labor in Mississippi. I know that my great grandparents were poor white people who worked on farms for low pay. My grandparents lived in the same area, but most of them worked in factories. Now that area has seen an increase in undocumented people who are doing the lowest-paying jobs.
Even without the necessity of a laptop, checking legal status is an extra strain on employers. It isn't very feasible for farmers, especially those with seasonal crops.
I've heard about the lost migrants in Georgia due to harsh immigration policy. The farmers complained about fruit rotting on their vines because there was no one to pick it. I guess we'll just wait and see how that turns out for those states.
Our immigration laws are in serious need of reform, no doubt. They haven't been changed on a national level yet precisely because politicians know we need the labor. I don't wonder about why we want to reform immigration. I wonder about why we think the answer is to kick workers out and/or deny them the rights of citizenship?
I guess I'm asking, do you honestly feel like you are suffering financially because of undocumented workers?
Prevailing Wages for US CITIZENS AND LEGAL IMMIGRANTS
posted 2/29/08 @ 12:16 PM CST
Lazarus,
The solution is simple: Penalize companies hiring illegals, withhold social enticements that encourage illegal immigration, and provide the American farmers with a competitive wage. The average household spends $370 per year on fruits and vegetables. If curtailing illegal alien agricultural labor caused tighter labor conditions and a 40 percent increase in wages, the increased cost to the American family would be $9 a year. For the American farm laborer this would mean an increase in earnings from $8,800 to $12,350. That increase would move the worker from beneath the federal poverty line to above it.
The solution is simple: Penalize companies hiring illegals, withhold social enticements that encourage illegal immigration, and provide the American farmers with a competitive wage. The average household spends $370 per year on fruits and vegetables. If curtailing illegal alien agricultural labor caused tighter labor conditions and a 40 percent increase in wages, the increased cost to the American family would be $9 a year. For the American farm laborer this would mean an increase in earnings from $8,800 to $12,350. That increase would move the worker from beneath the federal poverty line to above it.
Peter30
posted 2/29/08 @ 12:20 PM CST
Cassie Howard:
The solution is simple: Penalize companies hiring illegals, withhold social enticements that encourage illegal immigration, and provide the American farmers with a competitive wage. The average household spends $370 per year on fruits and vegetables. If curtailing illegal alien agricultural labor caused tighter labor conditions and a 40 percent increase in wages, the increased cost to the American family would be $9 a year. For the American farm laborer this would mean an increase in earnings from $8,800 to $12,350. That increase would move the worker from beneath the federal poverty line to above it.
The solution is simple: Penalize companies hiring illegals, withhold social enticements that encourage illegal immigration, and provide the American farmers with a competitive wage. The average household spends $370 per year on fruits and vegetables. If curtailing illegal alien agricultural labor caused tighter labor conditions and a 40 percent increase in wages, the increased cost to the American family would be $9 a year. For the American farm laborer this would mean an increase in earnings from $8,800 to $12,350. That increase would move the worker from beneath the federal poverty line to above it.
cassie
posted 2/29/08 @ 2:01 PM CST
Peter30,
I like the idea of providing American farmers with a competitive wage. But why can't American farmworkers also be the Mexican and Central-American farmers who are already doing the work? Or why can't we at least give them a legal migrant status?
Because I'm not sure we can get rid of them. Mass deportations would be mighty costly.
We have millions of undocumented workers in the U.S. If we pass a law that quickly makes it impossible to get a paycheck, they starve and die (because contrary to popular belief, they are not eligible for most types of government aid).
Many of them also came here because they were facing starvation or death in their country of origin, often because of the same trade policies that make it hard for small farmers in any country to survive today.
The issue is complex.
I like the idea of providing American farmers with a competitive wage. But why can't American farmworkers also be the Mexican and Central-American farmers who are already doing the work? Or why can't we at least give them a legal migrant status?
Because I'm not sure we can get rid of them. Mass deportations would be mighty costly.
We have millions of undocumented workers in the U.S. If we pass a law that quickly makes it impossible to get a paycheck, they starve and die (because contrary to popular belief, they are not eligible for most types of government aid).
Many of them also came here because they were facing starvation or death in their country of origin, often because of the same trade policies that make it hard for small farmers in any country to survive today.
The issue is complex.
JanetP
posted 2/29/08 @ 2:07 PM CST
HooRay for Mississippi and all the other states that have acted to make their states inhospitable to illegal immigrants. As the various states pass legislation to keep them out, they will all flock to the states that want to be a sanctuary. Those states will then rightly get what they deserve - probably bankruptcy. There surely will be some pain as the economy re-sets while these artificial stimulants are eliminated, but if we can get our country and our culture back it will have been worth it.
levotb
posted 2/29/08 @ 8:45 PM CST
Originally posted byJanetP
HooRay for Mississippi and all the other states that have acted to make their states inhospitable to illegal immigrants. As the various states pass legislation to keep them out, they will all flock to the states that want to be a sanctuary. Those states will then rightly get what they deserve - probably bankruptcy. There surely will be some pain as the economy re-sets while these artificial stimulants are eliminated, but if we can get our country and our culture back it will have been worth it.
Jan, it's already happening...Illegals by the tens of thousands are leaving OK, GA and AZ for KA, TX, IA, NE, NV and of course, CA which is going bankrupt and will probably bring the country down with it. You're right about the need to get our American culture back--no "Press one for English" and no illegals and their anchor babies and anchor children and adults.
Tayla
posted 2/29/08 @ 2:09 PM CST
Peter30,
The solution actually isn't that simple. While that may work for larger factories/companies who can actually afford to increase wages across the board and perhaps even increase the cost of their products, it's the small time family-owned businesses who are going to suffer. As Cassie mentioned earlier, her grandfather can't AFFORD to increase wages any more because his bottom line isn't big enough. Very few Americans are willing to work minimum wage for the back-breaking work undocumented workers do everyday so that means raising wages to well above the FMW, and in turn costs become more than profits. So then you have to raise product prices, but any economist can tell you that when you raise your prices, demand goes down, and after a certain point profits actually start to decrease. (After all, at some point it'll be much more cost effective for us consumers to buy boxed dinners and bologna than it will be to buy those healthy fruits and veggies you mentioned.) And that means no more small logging businesses/farmers in Northeast Mississippi.
The withholding of social enticements is an interesting argument. And I agree that it'd probably be effective, but there are also problems with doing this. Are we really going to look 10-year old Hispanic children in the face and tell them that they can't go to school with our children (because their parents are "bad people")? Are we really going to deny illegal immigrants emergency room attention after their hand was chopped off during an accident at the poultry factory? After I start to think about this, it sounds like less like denying benefits to immigrants workers and more like denying them human rights. And as Cassie mentioned earlier, they often don't receive the governmental aid that they pay into. I wouldn't say that their "social incentives" are that numerous, especially when they're often exploited by landlords, employers, and the justice system.
Cherubim makes an interesting point, that we need to look to the root of the problem. I agree. Why have we not stopped the rapid influx of illegal immigration by now? Perhaps they're more of an asset to us than what our government and those making the decisions would have us believe.
What DOES bother us so much about illegal immigration? Do we know personally of people who tried to get jobs that an undocumented worker came in and stole (I personally have never met anyone who could claim this, but surely it has happened)? Are illegal immigrants really making our lives miserable?
I'd be willing to bet that if employers had to choose between giving a job to an American and giving the same job to an illegal worker, most of them would much rather give the job to an American (if for no other reason than because it's legal!). But the fact is that illegal workers work harder and for less pay than their American counterparts. Is that really their fault or ours?
The solution actually isn't that simple. While that may work for larger factories/companies who can actually afford to increase wages across the board and perhaps even increase the cost of their products, it's the small time family-owned businesses who are going to suffer. As Cassie mentioned earlier, her grandfather can't AFFORD to increase wages any more because his bottom line isn't big enough. Very few Americans are willing to work minimum wage for the back-breaking work undocumented workers do everyday so that means raising wages to well above the FMW, and in turn costs become more than profits. So then you have to raise product prices, but any economist can tell you that when you raise your prices, demand goes down, and after a certain point profits actually start to decrease. (After all, at some point it'll be much more cost effective for us consumers to buy boxed dinners and bologna than it will be to buy those healthy fruits and veggies you mentioned.) And that means no more small logging businesses/farmers in Northeast Mississippi.
The withholding of social enticements is an interesting argument. And I agree that it'd probably be effective, but there are also problems with doing this. Are we really going to look 10-year old Hispanic children in the face and tell them that they can't go to school with our children (because their parents are "bad people")? Are we really going to deny illegal immigrants emergency room attention after their hand was chopped off during an accident at the poultry factory? After I start to think about this, it sounds like less like denying benefits to immigrants workers and more like denying them human rights. And as Cassie mentioned earlier, they often don't receive the governmental aid that they pay into. I wouldn't say that their "social incentives" are that numerous, especially when they're often exploited by landlords, employers, and the justice system.
Cherubim makes an interesting point, that we need to look to the root of the problem. I agree. Why have we not stopped the rapid influx of illegal immigration by now? Perhaps they're more of an asset to us than what our government and those making the decisions would have us believe.
What DOES bother us so much about illegal immigration? Do we know personally of people who tried to get jobs that an undocumented worker came in and stole (I personally have never met anyone who could claim this, but surely it has happened)? Are illegal immigrants really making our lives miserable?
I'd be willing to bet that if employers had to choose between giving a job to an American and giving the same job to an illegal worker, most of them would much rather give the job to an American (if for no other reason than because it's legal!). But the fact is that illegal workers work harder and for less pay than their American counterparts. Is that really their fault or ours?
Big Vinnie
posted 2/29/08 @ 11:30 PM CST
Originally posted byTayla
Peter30,
But the fact is that illegal workers work harder and for less pay than their American counterparts.
That is not a "fact"- it's a ridiculous opinion, contradicted by REALITY!
Jeffrey, Alum 99
posted 3/01/08 @ 1:06 PM CST
Originally posted byTayla
Peter30,
The solution actually isn't that simple. While that may work for larger factories/companies who can actually afford to increase wages across the board and perhaps even increase the cost of their products, it's the small time family-owned businesses who are going to suffer. As Cassie mentioned earlier, her grandfather can't AFFORD to increase wages any more because his bottom line isn't big enough. Very few Americans are willing to work minimum wage for the back-breaking work undocumented workers do everyday so that means raising wages to well above the FMW, and in turn costs become more than profits. So then you have to raise product prices, but any economist can tell you that when you raise your prices, demand goes down, and after a certain point profits actually start to decrease. (After all, at some point it'll be much more cost effective for us consumers to buy boxed dinners and bologna than it will be to buy those healthy fruits and veggies you mentioned.) And that means no more small logging businesses/farmers in Northeast Mississippi.
The withholding of social enticements is an interesting argument. And I agree that it'd probably be effective, but there are also problems with doing this. Are we really going to look 10-year old Hispanic children in the face and tell them that they can't go to school with our children (because their parents are "bad people")? Are we really going to deny illegal immigrants emergency room attention after their hand was chopped off during an accident at the poultry factory? After I start to think about this, it sounds like less like denying benefits to immigrants workers and more like denying them human rights. And as Cassie mentioned earlier, they often don't receive the governmental aid that they pay into. I wouldn't say that their "social incentives" are that numerous, especially when they're often exploited by landlords, employers, and the justice system.
Cherubim makes an interesting point, that we need to look to the root of the problem. I agree. Why have we not stopped the rapid influx of illegal immigration by now? Perhaps they're more of an asset to us than what our government and those making the decisions would have us believe.
What DOES bother us so much about illegal immigration? Do we know personally of people who tried to get jobs that an undocumented worker came in and stole (I personally have never met anyone who could claim this, but surely it has happened)? Are illegal immigrants really making our lives miserable?
I'd be willing to bet that if employers had to choose between giving a job to an American and giving the same job to an illegal worker, most of them would much rather give the job to an American (if for no other reason than because it's legal!). But the fact is that illegal workers work harder and for less pay than their American counterparts. Is that really their fault or ours?
Tayla, Illegal Aliens are still breaking federal law, so they DO get lopped in with the group that commits heinous crimes. It doesn't matter if they are here to support a family. It is still against the law.
howard
posted 2/29/08 @ 2:09 PM CST
To stop illegal immigration, it must be at the employers door step. We have enough problems with social security and medicaid. We do not need to adopt 20 million more welfare workforce so big business can have cheap labor. Enforce the laws and they will go back home.
Jeffrey, Alum '99
posted 2/29/08 @ 3:09 PM CST
Tayla, Cassie, the answer is obvious when the government (aka the American taxpayers) dole out of 300+ million dollars (google it, if you don't believe me) in social benefits, free education, and health care to Illegal Aliens. Do you really believe they are contributing anything near that amount? The money that they make goes back to Mexico, how does that help America? Why should we cast a blind eye to those that are bankrupting the country, break the law, and have no interest of being an American citizen whatsover? If they became citizens, do you think they would still pick fruit, work construction, etc? Probably not, because they would have to pay SS/Medicare or much worse go on Welfare. What do you say to those people who busted butt to get here Legally? I am not saying deport them all (that would be a difficult undertaking) I am saying that business owners have an obligation to follow the law. Also, we need to hold the government accountable for the mess they have created. The Democrats and the Republicans both share the blame. We need to stop voting for the same idiots who do not have American interest at heart.
Tayla
posted 2/29/08 @ 4:03 PM CST
Originally posted byJeffrey, Alum '99
Tayla, Cassie, the answer is obvious when the government (aka the American taxpayers) dole out of 300+ million dollars (google it, if you don't believe me) in social benefits, free education, and health care to Illegal Aliens. Do you really believe they are contributing anything near that amount? The money that they make goes back to Mexico, how does that help America? Why should we cast a blind eye to those that are bankrupting the country, break the law, and have no interest of being an American citizen whatsover? If they became citizens, do you think they would still pick fruit, work construction, etc? Probably not, because they would have to pay SS/Medicare or much worse go on Welfare. What do you say to those people who busted butt to get here Legally? I am not saying deport them all (that would be a difficult undertaking) I am saying that business owners have an obligation to follow the law. Also, we need to hold the government accountable for the mess they have created. The Democrats and the Republicans both share the blame. We need to stop voting for the same idiots who do not have American interest at heart.
Jeffrey,
Thank you for your response! You are correct in stating that the government (translated, we as taxpayers) are spending a lot of money (300+ million as you cited) in social benefits. I have conceded as much in my arguments. But if you go a little farther in a Google search, you will find that there have been many reputable studies and articles that suggest and make convincing arguments that illegal immigrants actually contribute more to our economy and contribute more to our government than they actually receive in benefits.
I also agree with you that the government should take responsibility in this matter. It has turned a blind eye while millions pour in to the US to work illegally, and I think the government should be answering to those who work hard to come to this country legally. But I don't think the answer is denying human rights to those who are already here.
http://www.workingimmigrants.com/2006/12/new_texas_study_says_illegal_i.html
Jeffrey, Alum '99
posted 2/29/08 @ 5:39 PM CST
Originally posted byJeffrey, Alum '99
Tayla, Cassie, the answer is obvious when the government (aka the American taxpayers) dole out of 300+ million dollars (google it, if you don't believe me) in social benefits, free education, and health care to Illegal Aliens. Do you really believe they are contributing anything near that amount? The money that they make goes back to Mexico, how does that help America? Why should we cast a blind eye to those that are bankrupting the country, break the law, and have no interest of being an American citizen whatsover? If they became citizens, do you think they would still pick fruit, work construction, etc? Probably not, because they would have to pay SS/Medicare or much worse go on Welfare. What do you say to those people who busted butt to get here Legally? I am not saying deport them all (that would be a difficult undertaking) I am saying that business owners have an obligation to follow the law. Also, we need to hold the government accountable for the mess they have created. The Democrats and the Republicans both share the blame. We need to stop voting for the same idiots who do not have American interest at heart.
Tayla, I invite you to the following:
$11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year. http://tinyurl.com/zob77
$1.9 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
$2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens. http://www.cis.org/articles/200/fiscalexec.html
$12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English! http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
$17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
$3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
$90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare and Social Services by the American taxpayers.
http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html
(Link not active ... was not able to verify this information)
$200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two-and-a-half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US. http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html
During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroin and marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border. Homeland Security Report. http://tinyurl.com/t9sht
The National Policy Institute, estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period. http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf
In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin. http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm
'The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States. http://www.drdsk.com/articles.html#Illegals
Tayla
posted 3/01/08 @ 12:12 PM CST
Originally posted byJeffrey, Alum '99
Tayla, Cassie, the answer is obvious when the government (aka the American taxpayers) dole out of 300+ million dollars (google it, if you don't believe me) in social benefits, free education, and health care to Illegal Aliens. Do you really believe they are contributing anything near that amount? The money that they make goes back to Mexico, how does that help America? Why should we cast a blind eye to those that are bankrupting the country, break the law, and have no interest of being an American citizen whatsover? If they became citizens, do you think they would still pick fruit, work construction, etc? Probably not, because they would have to pay SS/Medicare or much worse go on Welfare. What do you say to those people who busted butt to get here Legally? I am not saying deport them all (that would be a difficult undertaking) I am saying that business owners have an obligation to follow the law. Also, we need to hold the government accountable for the mess they have created. The Democrats and the Republicans both share the blame. We need to stop voting for the same idiots who do not have American interest at heart.
I assure you I've seen what Lou Dobbs and FAIR/CIS reports. I again encourage you to take look at your own research a little farther, because as you'll see, some of your citations are misinterpreted (for instance, the first link is for information about LEGAL immigrants, not ILLEGAL immigrants as you noted.)
Also, illegal immigrants who commit heinous crimes such as rape and murder should not be lumped into the same category with the family-oriented, often church-going immigrants who have done nothing more than avoided a few immigration laws. I have no doubt that deportation and/or conviction of murderers and rapists who've come here illegally (and sometimes even legally) is the right answer, but it's stretching it to apply this to the whole bunch. I know if I were convicted of breaking a traffic law or even some victimless federal offense (such as acting in commerce in Cuba), I wouldn't want to be considered as having the same moral character as Jeffrey Dahmer.
Cassie speaks of this matter more eloquently than I, and I encourage you to read her thoughts as well.
Bobby
posted 2/29/08 @ 3:45 PM CST
There are illegal aliens in Missisippii? I have read for years and years that Missisippii is the poorest state in the nation. What happened? Oil? Gold mines discovered? The whole illegal immigration phenomenon makes no sense to me whatever. I mean John,"Americans wouldn't pick lettuce for fifty dollars an hour", McCain, and El Presidente Bush said that we need millions of people to do jobs Americans are too lazy to do. Oh well, I guess some of you folks who voted for Obama take consolation in the statement he made that,"he will heal our relationship with Mexico." I'm too frightened to ask what that actually means.
Breanna McDonnell
posted 2/29/08 @ 3:58 PM CST
This is a joke right??? Here are REAL and effective laws!!!---
Federal judge: Law penalizing businesses that hire illegals OK---
'You are going to see this decision quoted by cities across the country'---Posted: February 2, 2008
8:05 p.m. Eastern
© 2008 WorldNetDaily.com---"The right of a small town in Missouri to deal with the cost and crime caused by the influx of illegal aliens has been upheld by a federal judge who ruled the community's ordinance penalizing local companies that hire undocumented workers is not pre-empted by federal law, does not discriminate against Hispanics and does not violate due-process rights or state law."---Cont'd through link.......http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=60016
Federal judge: Law penalizing businesses that hire illegals OK---
'You are going to see this decision quoted by cities across the country'---Posted: February 2, 2008
8:05 p.m. Eastern
© 2008 WorldNetDaily.com---"The right of a small town in Missouri to deal with the cost and crime caused by the influx of illegal aliens has been upheld by a federal judge who ruled the community's ordinance penalizing local companies that hire undocumented workers is not pre-empted by federal law, does not discriminate against Hispanics and does not violate due-process rights or state law."---Cont'd through link.......http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=60016
Buzzm1
posted 2/29/08 @ 3:59 PM CST
Illegal immigrants are costing American taxpayers over 200 billion dollars a year. California has over 1 million illegal immigrant students at a cost of $9,912 each to provide education for them. That's a cost of 10 billion dollars to CA taxpayers. Is there any wonder why Calfornia has a 14.5 billion dollar state budget deficit, overcrowded classrooms, and the need for new schools; all directly attribuatble to the presence of illegal immigrants.
Americans, stand up, and demand legislation ending this invasion.
Americans, stand up, and demand legislation ending this invasion.
Buzzm1
posted 2/29/08 @ 4:12 PM CST
Join a Local Anti-Illegal Immigration Group
http://tinyurl.com/378zbm
Contact your Senators and Representatives - office staff email addresses:
http://tinyurl.com/2r7q6e
suspicious activity??
866 DHS 2ICE.
1-866-347-2523
reportillegals.com
http://tinyurl.com/378zbm
Contact your Senators and Representatives - office staff email addresses:
http://tinyurl.com/2r7q6e
suspicious activity??
866 DHS 2ICE.
1-866-347-2523
reportillegals.com
Jimi
posted 2/29/08 @ 4:57 PM CST
San Francisco just announced that it is an official santuary city and proud of it. They are putting out ads welcoming the "undocumented". All you need to do is tell every illegal you come across, soon they will all leave and go there.
MC
posted 2/29/08 @ 5:02 PM CST
Cassie,
The people who will work in our poultry factories, sweet potato farms, and construction sites if illegals are not here would be American citizens. Plain and simple. Do you honestly believe the price of poultry would increase? I don't. Hiring of illegals doesn't mean cheaper poultry for any of us. It means more profit for the large company because they can get away with paying less. You fail to mention the fact that illegal immigrants have brought diseases we haven't had to deal with in quite some time back into this country. That doesn't make me feel good about what I'm eating.
The government already has a a way to show if a person is a citizen in the United States or not. The technology and database is nothing new. As far as your grandfather knows, the man is a legal worker. However, if there was a law enacted for him to ensure that his employees are all United States citizens then it is his responsibility to get it checked out.
I'd like to see a source for your studies showing illegal immigrants have less of a negative impact on the economy. If a worker is undocumented, then in most cases he is probably paid with cash. I'd like to point out the fact that you can -not- have a social security number to pay income taxes if you are not a legal citizen. If the worker pays in taxes through his check, then he -will- get it back. I have no idea where you came up with this theory at.
What you also fail to mention is just how much money is sent out of this country by the illegal immigrants. A huge amount of the money that is made is sent out of this country via Western Union. American currency in foreign countries is not helping the economy. Local or national.
Racism has nothing to do with this subject. I personally have no problem with legal immigrants. They entered the country the legal way, as opposed to breaking the law to get here in the first place. If you have to resort to using race in this issue, then you have failed at debating it.
The people who will work in our poultry factories, sweet potato farms, and construction sites if illegals are not here would be American citizens. Plain and simple. Do you honestly believe the price of poultry would increase? I don't. Hiring of illegals doesn't mean cheaper poultry for any of us. It means more profit for the large company because they can get away with paying less. You fail to mention the fact that illegal immigrants have brought diseases we haven't had to deal with in quite some time back into this country. That doesn't make me feel good about what I'm eating.
The government already has a a way to show if a person is a citizen in the United States or not. The technology and database is nothing new. As far as your grandfather knows, the man is a legal worker. However, if there was a law enacted for him to ensure that his employees are all United States citizens then it is his responsibility to get it checked out.
I'd like to see a source for your studies showing illegal immigrants have less of a negative impact on the economy. If a worker is undocumented, then in most cases he is probably paid with cash. I'd like to point out the fact that you can -not- have a social security number to pay income taxes if you are not a legal citizen. If the worker pays in taxes through his check, then he -will- get it back. I have no idea where you came up with this theory at.
What you also fail to mention is just how much money is sent out of this country by the illegal immigrants. A huge amount of the money that is made is sent out of this country via Western Union. American currency in foreign countries is not helping the economy. Local or national.
Racism has nothing to do with this subject. I personally have no problem with legal immigrants. They entered the country the legal way, as opposed to breaking the law to get here in the first place. If you have to resort to using race in this issue, then you have failed at debating it.
Jasper
posted 2/29/08 @ 6:46 PM CST
Almost all illegal aliens have committed felonies here in the United States. These include document fraud, social security fraud, ID theft, conspiracy to violate immigration laws, income tax evasion, welfare fraud, food stamp fraud, etc.
Bill Lake
posted 3/01/08 @ 12:53 AM CST
Cassie,
Please take the time to read news articles on illegal aliens. Spend a few minutes reading this site. http://www.alipac.us/forum-6.html
Not all news will tell you the person is illegal. This site has been an eye opener for me. I am old enough to remember when migrant workers would come to my home town in Florida to pick the farms. That was before they could bring their children. 1986 was the Amnesty Year for 3 million illegal aliens and the law to secure the boarder. Congress did not fund the law so it has not been enforced. To say a law is broken without enforcing is not the way to go. IF we were to give a pathway to citizenship to the 12 to 20 million here today what in 20 years are we going to do it again? If they are given citizenship what are the prices going to go up to if it is true they are not being paid legal wage? What about the states that give drivers license; 1993 Motor/Voter law. If you get drivers license you can register to vote. What about in-state college tuition, how many U.S. Citizens are losing a seat? What help with tuition are they getting. By law when they graduate they still will not be legal to work in the U.S.A.
My final comment is "How do feel on May 1st, A day without immigrants" when they march and DEMAND their rights?" It pisses me off. Remember there is a difference between a immigrant and illegal alien. Most news refers to all as being immigrants; which in their eyes is the political correct word. Our laws refer to illegal alien.
Please take the time to read news articles on illegal aliens. Spend a few minutes reading this site. http://www.alipac.us/forum-6.html
Not all news will tell you the person is illegal. This site has been an eye opener for me. I am old enough to remember when migrant workers would come to my home town in Florida to pick the farms. That was before they could bring their children. 1986 was the Amnesty Year for 3 million illegal aliens and the law to secure the boarder. Congress did not fund the law so it has not been enforced. To say a law is broken without enforcing is not the way to go. IF we were to give a pathway to citizenship to the 12 to 20 million here today what in 20 years are we going to do it again? If they are given citizenship what are the prices going to go up to if it is true they are not being paid legal wage? What about the states that give drivers license; 1993 Motor/Voter law. If you get drivers license you can register to vote. What about in-state college tuition, how many U.S. Citizens are losing a seat? What help with tuition are they getting. By law when they graduate they still will not be legal to work in the U.S.A.
My final comment is "How do feel on May 1st, A day without immigrants" when they march and DEMAND their rights?" It pisses me off. Remember there is a difference between a immigrant and illegal alien. Most news refers to all as being immigrants; which in their eyes is the political correct word. Our laws refer to illegal alien.
Mark O'Neil
posted 3/01/08 @ 8:11 AM CST
This whole issue is about the basic/foundational concept of "Rule of Law." Unfettered violation of the Rule of Law devalues all the laws of our nation, it devalues everyone's citizenship, it tears at the fabric of our national identity. Furthermore, ad hoc granting of amnesty to thousands, if not millions of people who willfully violated our laws is tantamount to letting criminals commit crimes freely and then reward them for doing so.
In the larger political picture we have an "unholy" alliance between a large number of Democrats and Republicans in order to further their own immoral political agendas. Some Republicans want to further Capitalism for the sake of avarice while some Democrats want to further Communism for the sake of increasing the dependence of the People upon the government for life's basic needs thereby usurping more political power from the People.
I am all for LEGAL immigration, if not done in an Ad hoc and immoral manner like above, but we cannot, we must not reward immoral behavior and grant legal status to thousands if not millions of people who so willfully and brazenly broke our laws, devalued our citizenship, and are destroying our national identity.
In the larger political picture we have an "unholy" alliance between a large number of Democrats and Republicans in order to further their own immoral political agendas. Some Republicans want to further Capitalism for the sake of avarice while some Democrats want to further Communism for the sake of increasing the dependence of the People upon the government for life's basic needs thereby usurping more political power from the People.
I am all for LEGAL immigration, if not done in an Ad hoc and immoral manner like above, but we cannot, we must not reward immoral behavior and grant legal status to thousands if not millions of people who so willfully and brazenly broke our laws, devalued our citizenship, and are destroying our national identity.
June
posted 3/01/08 @ 8:13 AM CST
No one seems to think of the legitimate alternatives to illegal alien workers. We import a couple of million legal immigrants each year, as well as religous and political immigrants. We have eight different visa programs and all sorts of people coming in legally. Don't they need jobs?And how about minimum risk prisoners? They could earn a little money or have it put away for their release. Seasonal work can also be done by college students and welfare recipients who are able to work. We don't need to expose ourselves to the criminals who are breaking into our country. This is probably too simple a solution for our government. I think all the open borders fanatics in Washington are making a profit from illegal immigration, so they will continue to destroy our country.
Dena
posted 3/01/08 @ 9:50 AM CST
. Taking away the ability to get worker's compensation is the most ludicrous idea anyone has had. Companies have insurance rates for worker's comp. If this is taken away, companies have no reason to have any kind of safety regulations on there jobs. That means that they can risk the lives of anyone who is illegal. I have never heard of an illegal claiming unemployment comp. That is dealing too much with the government. Most won't take that chance. Wise up people. Safety on job site should not be determined by someone legal status. If someone gets hurt on a job, no matter the person legal status, the company should have to pay. Talk about slave labor, this just gives companies a green light. Why not put them in chains and let them sleep in the barn?
Cassie
posted 3/01/08 @ 10:07 AM CST
Hey all,
Thanks for responding. Maybe later I'll get around to individual responses, but for now...well, there's crawfish to be eaten, and I'm about to head to the state/gators game.
One thing I'd like to say is that I haven't reached my conclusions on this issue because I have not seen the numbers on how much illegal aliens are costing the U.S. I assure you that I am very aware of what Lou Dobbs says. I have read Samuel Huntington, and am familiar with the studies of institutes like the Heritage Foundation. I have read various papers citing various numbers, with various agendas. I have read them all critically, (including those that support my viewpoint); I have looked at WHO wrote those papers and thought about why they might be inclined to write a particular thing, who's paying them, what research methods they used, why those may or may not be valid, that sort of thing. Because it matters a lot to me to be informed on this issue, and it matters a lot to me to not be a victim of propaganda, (I especially do not want to be the tool of a politician). Then I compared those various papers and findings, some academic and some not, to my reality. And frankly, something is wrong.
Because I have spent a lot of time with undocumented workers, especially in Mississippi. I have yet to meet one who does not want to learn English. Even more so, they want their children to learn English. The migrant workers I know personally in Mississippi will not even break the speed limit for fear of deportation. They see their only crime as trying to do what's best for their family. Most of them feel guilty about this, but don't feel like they had any other option. I know of absolutely none of them who are on welfare. We tend not to check your legal status if you're putting money in, but try to take it out, and we're gonna run a check on that. Maybe I can go into that further later...
When I'm looking for news on this issue, I make it a point to google "illegal aliens" AND "undocumented workers." I'm (hopefully) smart enough to read both sides and come away with my own opinion. I know that political correctness can be a bitch, but I'd encourage you to google both, if for no other reason than to marvel at the difference.
Lots of churches around Mississippi are offering English classes and their church building to undocumented workers. (I hope my fear that someone will report the churches to ICE is unfounded.) If you know someone involved with that, it's worth chatting with the people there. They want to practice English. And if you know someone who hires undocumented workers, ask them why. Examine your reality, don't simply accept a version that's given to you on the news or by some university or foundation funded report.
Also, remember that when we're talking about "illegals" we're talking about people, with families and concerns matching your own.
Again, I petition you to ask yourself why you really care, what our real fears are. Look at where your tax dollars are being spent (and look at various sources to find out. I think you'll find illegal immigration is not the main problem.)
The immigration problem is complex, and the solution will have to be complex.
I'm going to try to post some more research and articles later (as in, maybe when it's not the weekend), but for now I think this (slightly outdated) article is cool for providing lots of different viewpoints:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week711/cover.html
Sorry if this is horribly rambling. I thought it would be a short message...
Thanks for responding. Maybe later I'll get around to individual responses, but for now...well, there's crawfish to be eaten, and I'm about to head to the state/gators game.
One thing I'd like to say is that I haven't reached my conclusions on this issue because I have not seen the numbers on how much illegal aliens are costing the U.S. I assure you that I am very aware of what Lou Dobbs says. I have read Samuel Huntington, and am familiar with the studies of institutes like the Heritage Foundation. I have read various papers citing various numbers, with various agendas. I have read them all critically, (including those that support my viewpoint); I have looked at WHO wrote those papers and thought about why they might be inclined to write a particular thing, who's paying them, what research methods they used, why those may or may not be valid, that sort of thing. Because it matters a lot to me to be informed on this issue, and it matters a lot to me to not be a victim of propaganda, (I especially do not want to be the tool of a politician). Then I compared those various papers and findings, some academic and some not, to my reality. And frankly, something is wrong.
Because I have spent a lot of time with undocumented workers, especially in Mississippi. I have yet to meet one who does not want to learn English. Even more so, they want their children to learn English. The migrant workers I know personally in Mississippi will not even break the speed limit for fear of deportation. They see their only crime as trying to do what's best for their family. Most of them feel guilty about this, but don't feel like they had any other option. I know of absolutely none of them who are on welfare. We tend not to check your legal status if you're putting money in, but try to take it out, and we're gonna run a check on that. Maybe I can go into that further later...
When I'm looking for news on this issue, I make it a point to google "illegal aliens" AND "undocumented workers." I'm (hopefully) smart enough to read both sides and come away with my own opinion. I know that political correctness can be a bitch, but I'd encourage you to google both, if for no other reason than to marvel at the difference.
Lots of churches around Mississippi are offering English classes and their church building to undocumented workers. (I hope my fear that someone will report the churches to ICE is unfounded.) If you know someone involved with that, it's worth chatting with the people there. They want to practice English. And if you know someone who hires undocumented workers, ask them why. Examine your reality, don't simply accept a version that's given to you on the news or by some university or foundation funded report.
Also, remember that when we're talking about "illegals" we're talking about people, with families and concerns matching your own.
Again, I petition you to ask yourself why you really care, what our real fears are. Look at where your tax dollars are being spent (and look at various sources to find out. I think you'll find illegal immigration is not the main problem.)
The immigration problem is complex, and the solution will have to be complex.
I'm going to try to post some more research and articles later (as in, maybe when it's not the weekend), but for now I think this (slightly outdated) article is cool for providing lots of different viewpoints:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week711/cover.html
Sorry if this is horribly rambling. I thought it would be a short message...
Nette
posted 3/01/08 @ 11:50 AM CST
Cassie,
In response to your statement: "The question is, why did they stop? In most cases, I don't believe it's because undocumented workers came and took their jobs. (One possible exception might be construction work.)" - American citizens are still the majority employed in the occupations commonly referred to as "jobs Americans will not do" as documented by the Current Population Survey (a joint effort between the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the Census Bureau), as shown on the website: http://www.numbersusa.com/PDFs/Share%20of%20native%20workers%20by%20occup%20-%202003.pdf. Illegal immigrants share of those jobs is steadily increasing because employers who insist on following the law are put out of business by employers who have gained an unfair advantage due to their hiring of illegal cheap labor. These employers often exploit their illegal workforce, forcing them to work overtime with no compensation, in unsafe working conditions, sexually harrass them, offer no health care or vacation benefits, and sometimes even refuse to pay them at all (as in the case of many day laborers). Many pay them in cash, and as thus, are guilty of felony tax evasion. Given these facts, why would any employer not choose illegal laborers over American citizens? Many the same arguements now used by the business community in advocating the hiring of cheap, illegal labor are same as those used by plantation owners in favor of slave labor - and here I had thought we had learned from our mistakes!
You also stated: "Who will work in our poultry factories, sweet potato farms, or construction sites if illegal immigrants are not here? And if the answer is other Mississippians, how much will we have to pay for chicken, sweet potatoes, and houses if the employers are forced to up their wages." I suggest you read the study done by the Center for Immigration Studies entitled: "Farm Labor Shortages: How Real? What Response? By Philip Martin",http://www.cis.org/articles/2007/back907.html
Please refer me to studies that back the claim that ILLEGAL immigrants are necessary to the affordability of U.S. grown fruits and vegetables.
A laptop is not necessary to check the status of employees hired. Most public libraries have computers and internet access available for use to the general public. E-Verify is an Internet-based system operated by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) in partnership with the Social Security Administration (SSA). E-Verify is currently free to employers and is available in all 50 states. E-Verify provides an automated link to federal databases to help employers determine employment eligibility of new hires and the validity of their Social Security numbers. To find out more about E-Verify, please contact USCIS at 1-888-464-4218.
Tayla,
Wouldn't it be better for all concerned if ALL businesses were allowed a level playing field. A small business owner who hires an an illegal workforce is in direct competation with those who follow the law, giving them an unfair advantage over the law abiding, in turn, causing their businesses to fail. What of the law abiding business owners' rights? What do you tell the U.S. citizen employees who lost their jobs as a result, what do you tell THEIR children...'uh, sorry, I know your children also need a roof over their heads, food to eat, and a safe, healthly environment, but, you see, we've got all these people willing to do the job for sooo much less, they don't expect a living wage, or safe working conditions, let alone benefits such as health care...after all, illegals commonly live several families to a single family dwelling despite laws enacted to provide for a safe living environment & to allow for all persons to get out in case of fire...why can't you do that?'
You reference the study found on the webpage: http://www.workingimmigrants.com/2006/12/new_texas_study_says_illegal_i.html, as proof that illegal immigrants pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits is flawed in that they do not take into account the large number of children (U.S. citizens) who are born here of illegals. These children would NOT be living here had their parents not illegally crossed our borders or overstayed visas. Since they are a direct result of illegal immigration it only makes sense that they also be included in these studies, as they are some of the greatest receipents of Medicaid, food stamps, and other taxpayer provided services. Also mentioned in this study, but not included in their calculations is the Federal governments cost of subsidizing the education, health care and incarceration of illegals. Without Federal remibursements provided through taxpayer funds, the cost to the state of Texas for their illegal immigrant population would be much greater. This study does not address the costs incurred by local communities for additional law enforcement, or nationwide increased insurance and infrastructure costs to U.S. citizens because of unlicensed, uninsured illegal aliens.
Furthermore:
* Being hard-working and good hearted is commendable. But those
qualities do NOT entitle anyone to enter America illegally.
* U.S. immigration laws exist to protect American citizens and others that are here legally, not to facilitate a foreigner's pursuit of a better life.
* America operates according to the rule of law, which applies to everyone. This is true whether one is brown, black, yellow, lily-white, red, or an exotic hybrid of lavender and green.
* Demanding that our borders be secured and that the law be enforced is the right of all American citizens and doing so does not make any one a racist or bigot.
* Other countries are foreign nations with foreign flags and foreign languages. Bilingualism is cool--provided one of the languages is English. Those who come to America must adjust to our culture and traditions. We have no obligation or desire to change in deference to foreign newcomers.
* This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment
gives every citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so! But we have the right to decide who is allowed to stay here, so if you find OUR way of life too distasteful, you are welcome to leave!
In response to your statement: "The question is, why did they stop? In most cases, I don't believe it's because undocumented workers came and took their jobs. (One possible exception might be construction work.)" - American citizens are still the majority employed in the occupations commonly referred to as "jobs Americans will not do" as documented by the Current Population Survey (a joint effort between the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the Census Bureau), as shown on the website: http://www.numbersusa.com/PDFs/Share%20of%20native%20workers%20by%20occup%20-%202003.pdf. Illegal immigrants share of those jobs is steadily increasing because employers who insist on following the law are put out of business by employers who have gained an unfair advantage due to their hiring of illegal cheap labor. These employers often exploit their illegal workforce, forcing them to work overtime with no compensation, in unsafe working conditions, sexually harrass them, offer no health care or vacation benefits, and sometimes even refuse to pay them at all (as in the case of many day laborers). Many pay them in cash, and as thus, are guilty of felony tax evasion. Given these facts, why would any employer not choose illegal laborers over American citizens? Many the same arguements now used by the business community in advocating the hiring of cheap, illegal labor are same as those used by plantation owners in favor of slave labor - and here I had thought we had learned from our mistakes!
You also stated: "Who will work in our poultry factories, sweet potato farms, or construction sites if illegal immigrants are not here? And if the answer is other Mississippians, how much will we have to pay for chicken, sweet potatoes, and houses if the employers are forced to up their wages." I suggest you read the study done by the Center for Immigration Studies entitled: "Farm Labor Shortages: How Real? What Response? By Philip Martin",http://www.cis.org/articles/2007/back907.html
Please refer me to studies that back the claim that ILLEGAL immigrants are necessary to the affordability of U.S. grown fruits and vegetables.
A laptop is not necessary to check the status of employees hired. Most public libraries have computers and internet access available for use to the general public. E-Verify is an Internet-based system operated by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) in partnership with the Social Security Administration (SSA). E-Verify is currently free to employers and is available in all 50 states. E-Verify provides an automated link to federal databases to help employers determine employment eligibility of new hires and the validity of their Social Security numbers. To find out more about E-Verify, please contact USCIS at 1-888-464-4218.
Tayla,
Wouldn't it be better for all concerned if ALL businesses were allowed a level playing field. A small business owner who hires an an illegal workforce is in direct competation with those who follow the law, giving them an unfair advantage over the law abiding, in turn, causing their businesses to fail. What of the law abiding business owners' rights? What do you tell the U.S. citizen employees who lost their jobs as a result, what do you tell THEIR children...'uh, sorry, I know your children also need a roof over their heads, food to eat, and a safe, healthly environment, but, you see, we've got all these people willing to do the job for sooo much less, they don't expect a living wage, or safe working conditions, let alone benefits such as health care...after all, illegals commonly live several families to a single family dwelling despite laws enacted to provide for a safe living environment & to allow for all persons to get out in case of fire...why can't you do that?'
You reference the study found on the webpage: http://www.workingimmigrants.com/2006/12/new_texas_study_says_illegal_i.html, as proof that illegal immigrants pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits is flawed in that they do not take into account the large number of children (U.S. citizens) who are born here of illegals. These children would NOT be living here had their parents not illegally crossed our borders or overstayed visas. Since they are a direct result of illegal immigration it only makes sense that they also be included in these studies, as they are some of the greatest receipents of Medicaid, food stamps, and other taxpayer provided services. Also mentioned in this study, but not included in their calculations is the Federal governments cost of subsidizing the education, health care and incarceration of illegals. Without Federal remibursements provided through taxpayer funds, the cost to the state of Texas for their illegal immigrant population would be much greater. This study does not address the costs incurred by local communities for additional law enforcement, or nationwide increased insurance and infrastructure costs to U.S. citizens because of unlicensed, uninsured illegal aliens.
Furthermore:
* Being hard-working and good hearted is commendable. But those
qualities do NOT entitle anyone to enter America illegally.
* U.S. immigration laws exist to protect American citizens and others that are here legally, not to facilitate a foreigner's pursuit of a better life.
* America operates according to the rule of law, which applies to everyone. This is true whether one is brown, black, yellow, lily-white, red, or an exotic hybrid of lavender and green.
* Demanding that our borders be secured and that the law be enforced is the right of all American citizens and doing so does not make any one a racist or bigot.
* Other countries are foreign nations with foreign flags and foreign languages. Bilingualism is cool--provided one of the languages is English. Those who come to America must adjust to our culture and traditions. We have no obligation or desire to change in deference to foreign newcomers.
* This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment
gives every citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so! But we have the right to decide who is allowed to stay here, so if you find OUR way of life too distasteful, you are welcome to leave!
Raptorman
posted 3/01/08 @ 12:50 PM CST
How about this? Any action to encourage immigrants to cross our borders illegally, whether it's Bank of America offering credit cards to illegals or even San Francisco welcoming them as well...those acts are considered treason because they're encouraging people to break the law. They're encouraging immigrants to come here, which means they're aiding and abetting illegals.
Think of it as Bank of America and San Francisco officials being considered accomplices to this crime.
Think of it as Bank of America and San Francisco officials being considered accomplices to this crime.
alexandra samootin
posted 3/01/08 @ 5:18 PM CST
All people should have the same rights in medical care, whether they are illegal immigrants or not. Please view how Australia overcomes the shortage of donor organs on my website http://www.illegalorgandonor.com. My 20 year old son was set up to have a cycling accident in Brisbane, Queensland Australia. I live in Sydney, Australia. I was told that my son was killed instantly. Instead he was taken away from the accident site alive and used as an illegal organ donor. From Andrew's sad mother, Alexandra Samootin.
Tayla
posted 3/01/08 @ 9:21 PM CST
Even though we're a nation of laws, we're also a nation of rights. We can't just go rounding up the "brown people" and sticking them on a bus headed south (that is racial profiling). Immigrants, whether they are here legally or not, are entitled to due process rights and at least an opportunity to be heard by ICE, which would cost billions of dollars in taxpayer money. Therefore deportation for most of these individuals wouldn't be feasible.
So illegal immigrants remain here. But now we don't want them to obtain food for children under WIC or get emergency room attention. We also don't want them working. We don't want them getting an education either. We don't want them living in groups, but we definitely don't want them on the streets (that'd be bad for business).
Our jails are already full so jailing them all wouldn't be practical either (even though they'd probably be better off in jail, at least in jail they'd get emergency health care and opportunity for education).
What exactly are we proposing? Sure, we want to create a workable way to discourage FUTURE illegal immigration (I think most everyone agrees with that), but what about the millions of people who are already here? We can't just forget that they exist and deny them basic human rights merely because they crossed an invisible border.
I feel extremely blessed to be an American citizen. I can't imagine living in a country where there's no opportunity to work or earn money. I can't imagine having to make the tough decision to leave my family and friends behind in order to work in a strange country so that my family can put food on the table. But I'm not about to judge others' morality or decision-making abilities or take away their human rights because they DID have to make that tough decision.
How quickly we do forget that we're a nation of immigrants as soon as it's convenient for us.
So illegal immigrants remain here. But now we don't want them to obtain food for children under WIC or get emergency room attention. We also don't want them working. We don't want them getting an education either. We don't want them living in groups, but we definitely don't want them on the streets (that'd be bad for business).
Our jails are already full so jailing them all wouldn't be practical either (even though they'd probably be better off in jail, at least in jail they'd get emergency health care and opportunity for education).
What exactly are we proposing? Sure, we want to create a workable way to discourage FUTURE illegal immigration (I think most everyone agrees with that), but what about the millions of people who are already here? We can't just forget that they exist and deny them basic human rights merely because they crossed an invisible border.
I feel extremely blessed to be an American citizen. I can't imagine living in a country where there's no opportunity to work or earn money. I can't imagine having to make the tough decision to leave my family and friends behind in order to work in a strange country so that my family can put food on the table. But I'm not about to judge others' morality or decision-making abilities or take away their human rights because they DID have to make that tough decision.
How quickly we do forget that we're a nation of immigrants as soon as it's convenient for us.
MC
posted 3/01/08 @ 11:23 PM CST
Tayla,
You are only partially correct in your statement that the United States is a nation of rights. We are only a nation of rights to people who are legally American citizens. Why should someone who broke the law to enter this country be given more oppurtunity than a person whose parents were born here, and their parents before them? No one is going to be able to win in this arguement because you will not be swayed from your opinion nor I from mine, but at least get your facts straight when you type. Your definition of racial profiling is completely off base.
No one in their right mind wants to deport every illegal immigrant in this country because that would involve not only a large amount of money, but it would also involve some very scary tactics to do so. The world will never be perfect, and that will never change. You see, there is a lot broken with the way the government works in the first place. Why should someone who does not pay taxes, and sends money out of this country be entitled to the same benefits as a person who does pay taxes and who keeps money in this country? There are actual American citizens who can not get WIC for their children, nor can they get food stamps for themselves, even though they barely make ends meat, yet people who are in this country illegally should get it? You've got to be kidding yourself if you think this is right.
Maybe we should take care of our own citizens before we think about taking care of the rest of the world. Do you not believe that our citizens deserve to be clothed, fed, and taken care of before someone who has broken a law?
Face it Tayla, illegal immigrants are called illegal immigrants for one reason. They broke a law to enter this country.
Rights are only there so long as you don't infringe on the rights of others.
I personally believe we should take care of our own before we start taking care of the world.
Every citizen of every country in the world has the ability to work. Do you honestly think there are no jobs in the countries where the illegal immigrants come from? Get real.
Also, you need to study up on your defintion of "rights." Be sure you understand exactly what a right is.
How quickly you forget that we are a nation of LEGAL immigrants as soon as it is convenient for your arguement.
You are only partially correct in your statement that the United States is a nation of rights. We are only a nation of rights to people who are legally American citizens. Why should someone who broke the law to enter this country be given more oppurtunity than a person whose parents were born here, and their parents before them? No one is going to be able to win in this arguement because you will not be swayed from your opinion nor I from mine, but at least get your facts straight when you type. Your definition of racial profiling is completely off base.
No one in their right mind wants to deport every illegal immigrant in this country because that would involve not only a large amount of money, but it would also involve some very scary tactics to do so. The world will never be perfect, and that will never change. You see, there is a lot broken with the way the government works in the first place. Why should someone who does not pay taxes, and sends money out of this country be entitled to the same benefits as a person who does pay taxes and who keeps money in this country? There are actual American citizens who can not get WIC for their children, nor can they get food stamps for themselves, even though they barely make ends meat, yet people who are in this country illegally should get it? You've got to be kidding yourself if you think this is right.
Maybe we should take care of our own citizens before we think about taking care of the rest of the world. Do you not believe that our citizens deserve to be clothed, fed, and taken care of before someone who has broken a law?
Face it Tayla, illegal immigrants are called illegal immigrants for one reason. They broke a law to enter this country.
Rights are only there so long as you don't infringe on the rights of others.
I personally believe we should take care of our own before we start taking care of the world.
Every citizen of every country in the world has the ability to work. Do you honestly think there are no jobs in the countries where the illegal immigrants come from? Get real.
Also, you need to study up on your defintion of "rights." Be sure you understand exactly what a right is.
How quickly you forget that we are a nation of LEGAL immigrants as soon as it is convenient for your arguement.
Tayla
posted 3/02/08 @ 12:20 PM CST
Originally posted byMC
Tayla,
You are only partially correct in your statement that the United States is a nation of rights. We are only a nation of rights to people who are legally American citizens. Why should someone who broke the law to enter this country be given more oppurtunity than a person whose parents were born here, and their parents before them? No one is going to be able to win in this arguement because you will not be swayed from your opinion nor I from mine, but at least get your facts straight when you type. Your definition of racial profiling is completely off base.
No one in their right mind wants to deport every illegal immigrant in this country because that would involve not only a large amount of money, but it would also involve some very scary tactics to do so. The world will never be perfect, and that will never change. You see, there is a lot broken with the way the government works in the first place. Why should someone who does not pay taxes, and sends money out of this country be entitled to the same benefits as a person who does pay taxes and who keeps money in this country? There are actual American citizens who can not get WIC for their children, nor can they get food stamps for themselves, even though they barely make ends meat, yet people who are in this country illegally should get it? You've got to be kidding yourself if you think this is right.
Maybe we should take care of our own citizens before we think about taking care of the rest of the world. Do you not believe that our citizens deserve to be clothed, fed, and taken care of before someone who has broken a law?
Face it Tayla, illegal immigrants are called illegal immigrants for one reason. They broke a law to enter this country.
Rights are only there so long as you don't infringe on the rights of others.
I personally believe we should take care of our own before we start taking care of the world.
Every citizen of every country in the world has the ability to work. Do you honestly think there are no jobs in the countries where the illegal immigrants come from? Get real.
Also, you need to study up on your defintion of "rights." Be sure you understand exactly what a right is.
How quickly you forget that we are a nation of LEGAL immigrants as soon as it is convenient for your arguement.
As a nation we have decided that people of low income brackets are entitled to subsidies and/or food stamps. If US citizens aren't able to get food stamps, it's not because of illegal immigration, it's because they make too much money (even you yourself admit it's the government's responsibility) Maybe there are American citizens barely making ends meet who aren't eligible for WIC, while some babies born to illegal immigrant parents are eligible. Their ineligibility isn't the baby's fault, or even the parents' fault. And it doesn't matter if we DO decide that that the baby born to illegal parents should no longer get WIC benefits, those same American citizens barely making ends meet before still aren't any better off. The only difference is that now we also have a starving baby on our hands.
And only the reason we're a country of LEGAL immigrants is because our ancestors made it a point to not only expunge the people who'd been here long before they were or move them to tiny reservations, but also stated that "Indian law" was trumped by a law we'd managed to make up years and years later, which is flawed logic by any stretch of the imagination (Johnson v. M'intosh, look it up). Do we really want to start going into how our ancestors/nations founders legally and honorably pursued the American dream?
Believe me, for the last four years I've been studying up on what a "right" is (our own Supreme Court has stated that education is a fundamental right). It's funny to me that many of the same people who argue that we should go to other countries and not only fight for our rights but fight for the rights of other countries' citizens are making the argument that we need to worry only about the rights of US citizens before we start worrying about the others on US soil.
It's a little shortsighted to say that as a world powerhouse and a fully developed country our government's only responsibility is protecting our own. Our own government/citizens say time and time again that that's simply not the case and that our responsibilities don't end with US citizens. And while some may argue that we're protecting our basic freedoms and nobody else's when we go to war or occupy other countries, try telling that to the rest of the world and see how many allies we keep.
As for your comment:
Every citizen of every country in the world has the ability to work. Do you honestly think there are no jobs in the countries where the illegal immigrants come from? ...
Do you honestly believe that people would risk their lives to come to a country that obviously doesn't want them if there were opportunities to work in their home country? Pick up a paper. No, MC, not every citizen of every country in the world does has the ability to work.
Tayla
posted 3/02/08 @ 3:48 PM CST
Originally posted byMC
Tayla,
No one in their right mind wants to deport every illegal immigrant in this country because that would involve not only a large amount of money, but it would also involve some very scary tactics to do so. The world will never be perfect, and that will never change.
Oh, and I didn't mean to imply than anyone on this forum has suggested that mass deportation actually take place. I only mentioned the impossibility of mass deportation to accentuate the fact that illegal immigrants are here to stay (and since they're here to stay we can't simply ignore them and their rights, even if they did commit a crime.)
MC
posted 3/02/08 @ 11:22 PM CST
Tayla,
I will again say that every citizen of every country has the oppurtunity to work. I do read the paper by the way, everyday. I wouldn't be so naive to believe that people come across the border because there are no jobs in the country they are from.
There are jobs, but do they pay as much as a job in America? No, of course not. Jobs in America pay with an American dollar.
Our government can't even take care of our own. Why are there still homeless American citizens? This country needs to take care of our own before we begin to take care of others.
It's funny to me that so many people who are for giving rights to illegal immigrants, are against giving rights to people in other countries. Do you see where I am going with this?
No matter what you or I say, we aren't going to change each others opinion on the subject, and are likely not going to change anyone else's either. I've learned that debating on the internet really doesn't do much good since most people are well set in their own ways.
You and I will just have to disagree, but I do respect your politeness. This is definately a subject that can get quite heated.
I will again say that every citizen of every country has the oppurtunity to work. I do read the paper by the way, everyday. I wouldn't be so naive to believe that people come across the border because there are no jobs in the country they are from.
There are jobs, but do they pay as much as a job in America? No, of course not. Jobs in America pay with an American dollar.
Our government can't even take care of our own. Why are there still homeless American citizens? This country needs to take care of our own before we begin to take care of others.
It's funny to me that so many people who are for giving rights to illegal immigrants, are against giving rights to people in other countries. Do you see where I am going with this?
No matter what you or I say, we aren't going to change each others opinion on the subject, and are likely not going to change anyone else's either. I've learned that debating on the internet really doesn't do much good since most people are well set in their own ways.
You and I will just have to disagree, but I do respect your politeness. This is definately a subject that can get quite heated.
Tayla
posted 3/03/08 @ 2:51 PM CST
MC,
Thank you for debating with me. I agree it's a very passionate subject that lends itself awkwardly to online discussions, and nevertheless I've enjoyed hearing your perspective.
You're also correct that I'm not changing my mind about this topic. You see, until about 5 years ago I really didn't care about undocumented workers' rights, and I have to admit that my opinion was more in line with yours and some of the others in the forum. There has to be SOMETHING they can do for work in their own countries, right? Why should we worry about them when their own government won't?
But then I had the opportunity to visit a few developing countries, including Mexico and South Africa. I remember being so excited as I left the airport to venture out for the first time into Cape Town, but then excitement turned to shock as I looked out the van window. Thousands of tin sheds placed on top of one another as far as the eye could see. No running water, no electricity. Unimaginable poverty stricken people everywhere. Here I was, a girl from the poorest state in the USA and yet I'd never observed anything remotely touching the poverty I saw in these countries. I remember trying unsuccessfully to stifle tears of embarrassment from running down my cheeks because until then I had conveniently dismissed the notion that life could be so cruel. It was a little bittersweet whenever the van puttered past the impoverished districts to the much nicer area where my apartment was located. I felt so ashamed that I'd come to these peoples' country to have fun and extend my education when they were trying their best not to starve to death just 10 kilometers down the road.
Don't get me wrong, I still managed to have a good time in these wonderful places I visited, and I even met some folks who were employed and financially stable. Because you're right. There are jobs in these countries. Most of the time those jobs go to people who are fortunate enough to pay for an education or who know someone with influence. And sure, there are lots of entrepreneurs. Tons of artisans, street performers, cooks flood the local street markets to sell their goods. People offering newspapers on the streets, shining shoes, anything to get by. But if you trek into the townships and ghettos, even on street market days, you'll see thousands of people with nothing to sell or exchange and with no skills to offer because getting an education is not an option. They don't have money because they don't have a job because they don't have an education because their family can't afford it and vice versa.
So oddly enough, visiting the homeland of many of these migrant workers led me to change my mind about how I should view my own country and how I should treat others who come here (whether they're here illegally or not).
I now like to think of myself as a global citizen in addition to being a proud American citizen. My compassion doesn't stop at my country's border or with a valid United States ID, and it doesn't sway because of a convincing set of tentative statistics I've read somewhere (even if my compassion means that I must share my good fortune with others). I care about the rights of my fellow Americans and understand the hardships they face everyday (because I've met/know/have family members who are poverty stricken Americans too), but that doesn't have to be mutually exclusive to caring about the rights of my fellow global citizens.
MC, you're also very correct about the importance of these comments. I know that people rarely change their views about these sensitive issues once their mind is made up, and least of all because of some blog or post on some random forum by someone they've never met. But I can only hope that people truly inform themselves about this important issue and really understand what these bills will do (because while I by no means claim to be an expert, I've spent a lot of hours researching the implications of these and similar bills as well as the broader issue of immigration).
After all, I'd much rather see people disagreeing with me but being well-informed about things instead of knowing that people are merely apathetic about the issue.
Thanks again for your thoughts and viewpoints, I've learned a lot!
Thank you for debating with me. I agree it's a very passionate subject that lends itself awkwardly to online discussions, and nevertheless I've enjoyed hearing your perspective.
You're also correct that I'm not changing my mind about this topic. You see, until about 5 years ago I really didn't care about undocumented workers' rights, and I have to admit that my opinion was more in line with yours and some of the others in the forum. There has to be SOMETHING they can do for work in their own countries, right? Why should we worry about them when their own government won't?
But then I had the opportunity to visit a few developing countries, including Mexico and South Africa. I remember being so excited as I left the airport to venture out for the first time into Cape Town, but then excitement turned to shock as I looked out the van window. Thousands of tin sheds placed on top of one another as far as the eye could see. No running water, no electricity. Unimaginable poverty stricken people everywhere. Here I was, a girl from the poorest state in the USA and yet I'd never observed anything remotely touching the poverty I saw in these countries. I remember trying unsuccessfully to stifle tears of embarrassment from running down my cheeks because until then I had conveniently dismissed the notion that life could be so cruel. It was a little bittersweet whenever the van puttered past the impoverished districts to the much nicer area where my apartment was located. I felt so ashamed that I'd come to these peoples' country to have fun and extend my education when they were trying their best not to starve to death just 10 kilometers down the road.
Don't get me wrong, I still managed to have a good time in these wonderful places I visited, and I even met some folks who were employed and financially stable. Because you're right. There are jobs in these countries. Most of the time those jobs go to people who are fortunate enough to pay for an education or who know someone with influence. And sure, there are lots of entrepreneurs. Tons of artisans, street performers, cooks flood the local street markets to sell their goods. People offering newspapers on the streets, shining shoes, anything to get by. But if you trek into the townships and ghettos, even on street market days, you'll see thousands of people with nothing to sell or exchange and with no skills to offer because getting an education is not an option. They don't have money because they don't have a job because they don't have an education because their family can't afford it and vice versa.
So oddly enough, visiting the homeland of many of these migrant workers led me to change my mind about how I should view my own country and how I should treat others who come here (whether they're here illegally or not).
I now like to think of myself as a global citizen in addition to being a proud American citizen. My compassion doesn't stop at my country's border or with a valid United States ID, and it doesn't sway because of a convincing set of tentative statistics I've read somewhere (even if my compassion means that I must share my good fortune with others). I care about the rights of my fellow Americans and understand the hardships they face everyday (because I've met/know/have family members who are poverty stricken Americans too), but that doesn't have to be mutually exclusive to caring about the rights of my fellow global citizens.
MC, you're also very correct about the importance of these comments. I know that people rarely change their views about these sensitive issues once their mind is made up, and least of all because of some blog or post on some random forum by someone they've never met. But I can only hope that people truly inform themselves about this important issue and really understand what these bills will do (because while I by no means claim to be an expert, I've spent a lot of hours researching the implications of these and similar bills as well as the broader issue of immigration).
After all, I'd much rather see people disagreeing with me but being well-informed about things instead of knowing that people are merely apathetic about the issue.
Thanks again for your thoughts and viewpoints, I've learned a lot!
Jeff
posted 3/27/08 @ 7:35 AM CST
Here is another incident from the Illegal Aliens that you love so much:
"Police say illegal immigrant stabbed man while on bail
WASHINGTON (Map, News) - A Montgomery County-based MS-13 gang member and illegal immigrant who allegedly stabbed a man almost to death after being released on bond following an earlier attack is now in custody in Prince William County, where his immigration status may complicate his extradition.
Milton Calderon-Melendez, 25, of El Salvador, is awaiting extradition from Prince William to Montgomery to face charges of assault and conspiracy to commit second-degree murder. Meanwhile, as Prince William's policy dictates, Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials have already been informed of his illegal presence in the U.S.
On the night of July 18, two Montgomery County police on surveillance duty near the intersection of Lost Knife Road and Odenthall Avenue in Gaithersburg said they observed Calderon-Melendez punch Kiana Snowden, 15, in the face. He was promptly arrested and later admitted to being a member of the violent MS-13 street gang. Calderon-Melendez was then released on $2,500 bail until his trial on Aug. 17, which he never appeared for.
On Aug. 20, he and Jose Gagoberto Flores Cardova allegedly assaulted Cardova's roommate, known only as Salguero in court documents, in their 8200 Iron Clad Court apartment in Gaithersburg.
Health centers built in Md. schools, but some still need more classrooms
According to police, Cardova beat Salguero in the head with a baseball bat and Calderon-Melendez stabbed him in the sternum with a knife. Police found the bloody bat and a broken knife in the house after the two had already fled.
Had Calderon-Melendez originally been arrested in Prince William, his immigration status would have been checked and he would've stayed in jail, Prince William County police said. But it's not Montgomery County policy to check the immigration status of those arrested, Seth Zucker, spokesman for Montgomery County State's Attorney John McCarthy, said.
When bail is set in Montgomery County by bail commissioners, the state's attorney makes no argument and it is only in cases in which a suspect can't post bail right away or bail is waived by the commissioners that the state's attorney argues on the potential for suspect to flee, Zucker said.
Calderon-Melendez was released the day of his arrest in July, and after the August attack, he laid low until finally arrested by a Prince William County gang unit on Friday."
Cassie, Tayla maybe you could get him a job working for you since you think Illegals Aliens are so great.
"Police say illegal immigrant stabbed man while on bail
WASHINGTON (Map, News) - A Montgomery County-based MS-13 gang member and illegal immigrant who allegedly stabbed a man almost to death after being released on bond following an earlier attack is now in custody in Prince William County, where his immigration status may complicate his extradition.
Milton Calderon-Melendez, 25, of El Salvador, is awaiting extradition from Prince William to Montgomery to face charges of assault and conspiracy to commit second-degree murder. Meanwhile, as Prince William's policy dictates, Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials have already been informed of his illegal presence in the U.S.
On the night of July 18, two Montgomery County police on surveillance duty near the intersection of Lost Knife Road and Odenthall Avenue in Gaithersburg said they observed Calderon-Melendez punch Kiana Snowden, 15, in the face. He was promptly arrested and later admitted to being a member of the violent MS-13 street gang. Calderon-Melendez was then released on $2,500 bail until his trial on Aug. 17, which he never appeared for.
On Aug. 20, he and Jose Gagoberto Flores Cardova allegedly assaulted Cardova's roommate, known only as Salguero in court documents, in their 8200 Iron Clad Court apartment in Gaithersburg.
Health centers built in Md. schools, but some still need more classrooms
According to police, Cardova beat Salguero in the head with a baseball bat and Calderon-Melendez stabbed him in the sternum with a knife. Police found the bloody bat and a broken knife in the house after the two had already fled.
Had Calderon-Melendez originally been arrested in Prince William, his immigration status would have been checked and he would've stayed in jail, Prince William County police said. But it's not Montgomery County policy to check the immigration status of those arrested, Seth Zucker, spokesman for Montgomery County State's Attorney John McCarthy, said.
When bail is set in Montgomery County by bail commissioners, the state's attorney makes no argument and it is only in cases in which a suspect can't post bail right away or bail is waived by the commissioners that the state's attorney argues on the potential for suspect to flee, Zucker said.
Calderon-Melendez was released the day of his arrest in July, and after the August attack, he laid low until finally arrested by a Prince William County gang unit on Friday."
Cassie, Tayla maybe you could get him a job working for you since you think Illegals Aliens are so great.
carlos h mackey
posted 3/27/08 @ 10:04 PM CST
Cassie, Tayla;100,000 people have left Oklahoma alone most likely most if not all of those leaving are illegal or have family members who are illegal. That is just one state;also missouri and arizona are experiencing the same phenomenum,ergo build a field of dreams and they will come,turn out the lights and they leave. No need for mass deportations,no need for mass legalization either:Cut off the jobs and they will slowly but surely not let the door hit them where the dog bit them;they "GET OUT"!
Jana Smith
posted 4/01/08 @ 2:52 PM CST
Cassie, It is a felony to be in this country illegally. Laws need to be enforced.
Illegals have broken many laws, and working when here is a major one. Legal and Mississippi citizens should not be unemployed or pasted over for cheaper, Illegal workers. It is sad the employers think only of a $ and not they are breaking a law. 10-15 years ago I dont't recall seeing any hispanics (illegals).
The Law:
A person (including a group of persons, business, organization or local government) commits a federal felony when he:
assists an alien whom he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him to obtain employment,
encourages that alien to remain in the U.S., by referring him to an employer, by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or
knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.
Penalties upon conviction include criminal fines, imprisonment, and forfeiture of vehicles and real property used to commit the crime.
Illegals have broken many laws, and working when here is a major one. Legal and Mississippi citizens should not be unemployed or pasted over for cheaper, Illegal workers. It is sad the employers think only of a $ and not they are breaking a law. 10-15 years ago I dont't recall seeing any hispanics (illegals).
The Law:
A person (including a group of persons, business, organization or local government) commits a federal felony when he:
assists an alien whom he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him to obtain employment,
encourages that alien to remain in the U.S., by referring him to an employer, by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or
knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.
Penalties upon conviction include criminal fines, imprisonment, and forfeiture of vehicles and real property used to commit the crime.
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Cassie Howard
posted 2/29/08 @ 10:06 AM CST
Who will work in our poultry factories, sweet potato farms, or construction sites if illegal immigrants are not here? And if the answer is other Mississippians, how much will we have to pay for chicken, sweet potatoes, and houses if the employers are forced to up their wages. And how will a farmer in Vardaman or a construction company owner in Biloxi find means to check the legal status of their employees? How will he or she pay for it? Will the government pay for the laptop he'll have to buy to search a database that the government will have to build and disperse. Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
My grandpa owns a small logging company in Northeast Mississippi. He employs a likely undocumented worker. He does not own a laptop or have the internet. He has two forms of i.d. from the man, which is what the government requires. What else should he do? The man is the best worker he has. It's hard for him to hire someone else because he can't pay much since his local business is going under due to competition from national contractors.
There are also many studies that show undocumented people have less of a negative impact on an economy than actual citizens. I encourage you to consider those. Undocumented workers pay in taxes, pay in social security, but they don't receive anything back. It is pretty hard to qualify for governmental aid if you ARE a citizen. It is impossible if you don't have proper documentation. I'd encourage you to ask undocumented people in Mississippi (or anybody in Mississippi) how much they have benefited from "free health care." Undocumented workers also put money into our economy by shopping at our businesses, buying houses in our state, renting apartments in our towns.
Speaking of apartments, I don't understand your apartment analogy. Can you explain that further?
I respect your opinion, and I wouldn't accuse your logic of racism, but I would ask you to think real hard about what bothers you the most about illegal immigration? Has it really hurt your pocketbook? I doubt it. What are you afraid of?